Logo
Rodding Roundtable
Home  |  Forums  |  Events  |  Members  |  Webring  |  Tech  |  Merchandise  |  Contact  |  Services
abLinks   |  Want Ads  |  Advertising  
   ForumForum   FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   AlbumAlbum   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Classified AdsClassified Ads Search AdsSearch Ads

Help with an HEI coil ...

 
Post new topic      Reply to topic   printer-friendly view    Rodding Roundtable Forum Index -> Rodder's Roundtable
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
UGLY OLDS
Earl


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
User's Age: N/A
Posts: 3215
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Thu, Nov 05 2015, 8:53 pm    Post subject: Help with an HEI coil ... Reply with quote

I decided to move this to a post of its own ... Anybody got an idea Question


I have a question for all the guys that have a good understanding of HEI & remember them well.
In my parts stash , I recently found an Accell # 140003 NOS coil.. I put the multi-meter to it to verify it's condition..
Primary side ...0.5 Ohms as per the spec sheet...
Secondary side ...Open .....
An autopsy determined that there is no "ground" lead coming out of the epoxy sealed coil..No evidence of there ever being one there ...

Almost all the HEI coils that I have seen have a red "battery" wire & a yellow or white wire that goes into the "tach" position on the cap....Then there is a short black or dark blue ground wire with a ring terminal that goes under the internal metal strap on the iron laminated pole part that becomes the center terminal between the batt & tach terminals ... My first step was to look at another coil in stock & sure 'nuf ..Three wires ...

This coil has a red & yellow wire combination & I know it must be matched with a pickup coil with a yellow wire for correct polarity ...( The ones with a white wire are used with white wire pickup coils ..Again, something about polarity or engine rotation ..Olds / Pontiac maybe ??)..

I remember something about '75 or early '76 cars using this combination but what makes it work ??? I cannot understand how the secondary side would get grounded ...??

Again..This coil is brand new , never been installed & has no evidence whatsoever of ever having the short black ground wire ...

Of course , the Accell tech dept advised me that I was :

A ..Mistaken...
B... Missing the obvious ....
C.. Blind ....
D.. Crazy
E.. Having no knowledge of what I was talking about .....
F.. Just plain stupid....

I admit to "D" & sometimes "C & F" , but I know what I am seein' .....

Anybody ever run into this ?????

Bob.... Wink

_________________
1940 Oldsmobile- The "Ugly Olds"
1931 Ford sedan- Retirement project

***** First Member of Team Smart*****
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
idrivejunk
Baron


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 06 Aug 2011
User's Age: (51)
Posts: 1405
Location: Springdale AR

PostPosted: Fri, Nov 06 2015, 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe you're missing the metal strap shown floating here?

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
UGLY OLDS
Earl


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
User's Age: N/A
Posts: 3215
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Fri, Nov 06 2015, 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
idrivejunk wrote:
Maybe you're missing the metal strap shown floating here?




I am familiar with that strap. It provides a ground from the coil "pole" to the vehicle chassis .. The wire that I am missing comes right out of the body of the coil winding & needs to be placed UNDER that strap to properly ground the coil...I see no evidence of this coil ever having the ground wire ... My question is ..How does it work ?????

Perhaps the photos below will help Question

Thanks ...Bob ... Wink



P1000741.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  102.62 KB
 Viewed:  176 Time(s)

P1000741.JPG



P1000742.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  100.19 KB
 Viewed:  169 Time(s)

P1000742.JPG



P1000738.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  96.83 KB
 Viewed:  171 Time(s)

P1000738.JPG



P1000743.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  102.57 KB
 Viewed:  167 Time(s)

P1000743.JPG



_________________
1940 Oldsmobile- The "Ugly Olds"
1931 Ford sedan- Retirement project

***** First Member of Team Smart*****
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
wayne petty
Paladin


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 19 Aug 2007
User's Age: (56)
Posts: 3919
Location: cal.

PostPosted: Fri, Nov 06 2015, 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what is interesting is that model uses a molded coil cover that the screws go straight thru .. so i would want you to flip the coil bottom up and measure from the output terminal to the laminations thru the different ranges of your ohm meter.. 8.6K

there is a chance that accel figures out a way to hook up the coil in the middle.. but as long as the laminations are grounded by the ground strap they won't build up voltage that will cause a flash over.


it will probably work..

when the ground strap is left out of the conventional in cap HEI distributors.. the voltage will build up in the laminations until it flashes over usually taking out the red wire..


Part Number: 140003
Weight: 2.2 lbs
Coil Can Diameter (in): 4
Coil Can Height (in): 3.5
Coil Can Overall Height (in): 3.5
Coil Color / Finish: Grey
Coil Configuration: Conventional
Coil Terminal Type: Direct Plug In
Coil Turns Ratio: 80:1
Coil Wire Terminal Attachment Type: OEM
Inductance (mH): 7.1
Item Grade: High Performance
Maximum Voltage (V): 45000
Minimum Primary Resistance Range: .5 ohms
Minimum Secondary Resistance Range: 8.6k
Package Contents: Coil
Peak Current (mA): 200
Spark Duration (s): 250
Vehicle System Voltage: 12V
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail  
UGLY OLDS
Earl


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
User's Age: N/A
Posts: 3215
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Sat, Nov 07 2015, 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="wayne petty"]what is interesting is that model uses a molded coil cover that the screws go straight thru .. so i would want you to flip the coil bottom up and measure from the output terminal to the laminations thru the different ranges of your ohm meter.. 8.6K

there is a chance that accel figures out a way to hook up the coil in the middle.. but as long as the laminations are grounded by the ground strap they won't build up voltage that will cause a flash over.


it will probably work..

when the ground strap is left out of the conventional in cap HEI distributors.. the voltage will build up in the laminations until it flashes over usually taking out the red wire..


Thanks for the reply Wayne ... I too had the same idea during my "autopsy".. The resistance between the secondary output terminal & the laminated iron pole is "infinite " on all meter ranges showing no connection ..

The readings from the primary windings to the pole also show infinite.. The resistance of the primary winding is 0.5 ohm as per spec ...

I too looked for some type of a ground strap or connection hidden between the pole & the winding housing .. Nothing ..Nada.. Nyet..

That is what has me baffled .. I have seen HEI coils with the short ground lead out the bottom, in the back, out the side of the coil housing , but NEVER missing altogether .. There is also no evidence of a wire being "snipped" or cut flush.. ( See photos ) ..

I have played with HEI's for a long time & have seen the "flashover" that can occur .. A lot of folks fail to see the potential in these dizzys .. I remember bench testing the unit that is in my Olds, supplying 12 volts to the batt terminal & a good ground , giving it a spin in the vise & watching it fire from the plug wire terminals on the cap to the distributor base.. (About 4" .Shocked )

Inquiring minds need to know .... Question Laughing Confused

Thanks ..

Bob.... Wink

_________________
1940 Oldsmobile- The "Ugly Olds"
1931 Ford sedan- Retirement project

***** First Member of Team Smart*****
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
wayne petty
Paladin


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 19 Aug 2007
User's Age: (56)
Posts: 3919
Location: cal.

PostPosted: Sat, Nov 07 2015, 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i found a neat trick for bench testing HEI's

complete with the cap and coil cover...

with a battery or jump start box.. a pair of jumper cables.. a wire to hook to between the positive and the HEI BAT connector.. and a piece of metal

order is important in this hook up.

turn the distributor Upside down over the metal plate.. so the cap terminals are all near the plate.

first.. hook up one jumper cable from the steel or metal plate to the NEGATIVE battery connection..

second.. Hook up the other jumper cable from the distributor housing to the NEGATIVE batter connection..

now hook up the Positive wire to the HEI BAT..

you may now safely spin the shaft and the cap terminals will spark safely to the metal plate..


~~~~~~~

is there any resistance between the RED wire and the coil output in any setting??



~~~~~~~~~~


i have also started telling tech friends to assemble old but good matched spark plugs in a pack.. all the shells wired or welded together with a ground wire and clip... electrodes all facing in a position to make the spark easy to see..

either remove the spark plug wires on the ignition system being tested and plug them into the rack of spark plugs..

or have some good spark plug wires on your rack of plugs..

they have been using this to test DIS ignition systems that use coil packs to check for weak spark . it will also work for HEI ignition systems.


~~~~~~~~~~~

i have this great idea for used HEI cap and coil connectors..

cut the red and white wire close to the coil.. saw off the bottom of the cap.. so you only have the connection area ... solder on a 212-2 bulb.. or mount a dome light socket to it.. using the red and white wire..

you can now plug the 3 terminal wire up from the base into this and the power wire.. crank the engine.. this will make a module tester for HEI.. if it flashes the module is good..

i want to put an ON-ON switch with the center terminal going to the bulb wire.. one side going to the white wire up from the C connector on the module.. the other going to the center connector going to the ground..


this allows one to hook up and check for power to the HEI.. doing the slow key rotation from off to ON and then cranking and back to ON then slowly off.. i have found so many ignition switches with worn spots that when returned to the RUN position it looses IGN 1 power to the HEI..

this is a really simple tool.. i keep tossing out the dead parts and forgetting to make them.. but perhaps some of the rodding round table members will make their own.

the reason to use the 212-2 bulb.. it draws enough amperage to duplicate the coil. it also draws enough amperage to test the power to the hei..

i keep a cheep test light with a 212-2 bulb in it for testing turn signal circuits. its enough draw to make the flashers work.. i use cheep versions as i melted a few of my good ones when i had the clip hooked to positive and it touched something grounded.. the lamp turned on and within a minute melted the 15 buck circuit tester body.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail  
UGLY OLDS
Earl


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
User's Age: N/A
Posts: 3215
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Sat, Nov 07 2015, 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wayne petty wrote:
i found a neat trick for bench testing HEI's

complete with the cap and coil cover...

with a battery or jump start box.. a pair of jumper cables.. a wire to hook to between the positive and the HEI BAT connector.. and a piece of metal

order is important in this hook up.

turn the distributor Upside down over the metal plate.. so the cap terminals are all near the plate.

first.. hook up one jumper cable from the steel or metal plate to the NEGATIVE battery connection..

second.. Hook up the other jumper cable from the distributor housing to the NEGATIVE batter connection..

now hook up the Positive wire to the HEI BAT..

you may now safely spin the shaft and the cap terminals will spark safely to the metal plate..


~~~~~~~

Quote:
is there any resistance between the RED wire and the coil output in any setting??




~~~~~~~~~~


i have also started telling tech friends to assemble old but good matched spark plugs in a pack.. all the shells wired or welded together with a ground wire and clip... electrodes all facing in a position to make the spark easy to see..

either remove the spark plug wires on the ignition system being tested and plug them into the rack of spark plugs..

or have some good spark plug wires on your rack of plugs..

they have been using this to test DIS ignition systems that use coil packs to check for weak spark . it will also work for HEI ignition systems.


~~~~~~~~~~~

i have this great idea for used HEI cap and coil connectors..

cut the red and white wire close to the coil.. saw off the bottom of the cap.. so you only have the connection area ... solder on a 212-2 bulb.. or mount a dome light socket to it.. using the red and white wire..

you can now plug the 3 terminal wire up from the base into this and the power wire.. crank the engine.. this will make a module tester for HEI.. if it flashes the module is good..

i want to put an ON-ON switch with the center terminal going to the bulb wire.. one side going to the white wire up from the C connector on the module.. the other going to the center connector going to the ground..


this allows one to hook up and check for power to the HEI.. doing the slow key rotation from off to ON and then cranking and back to ON then slowly off.. i have found so many ignition switches with worn spots that when returned to the RUN position it looses IGN 1 power to the HEI..

this is a really simple tool.. i keep tossing out the dead parts and forgetting to make them.. but perhaps some of the rodding round table members will make their own.

the reason to use the 212-2 bulb.. it draws enough amperage to duplicate the coil. it also draws enough amperage to test the power to the hei..

i keep a cheep test light with a 212-2 bulb in it for testing turn signal circuits. its enough draw to make the flashers work.. i use cheep versions as i melted a few of my good ones when i had the clip hooked to positive and it touched something grounded.. the lamp turned on and within a minute melted the 15 buck circuit tester body.



Good idea on the steel plate & the test light for diagnostic work .. Idea

Just ran resistance test again with a different meter .. Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

Ah...... Embarassed Embarassed

Now have 0.5 ohm on the coil winding & 8.5K between the secondary terminal & either the red ,(battery ) , OR the yellow , ( trigger) terminal ... Shocked

Maybe it's time to visit the Harbor Fright store with a coupon.. Idea Rolling Eyes

I still cannot understand where the ground connection is on the secondary coil Question Unless they are picking it up internally Question Question

Thanks for your idea's & patience Wayne ..... Your the Tops! Your the Tops!

Bob... Wink

_________________
1940 Oldsmobile- The "Ugly Olds"
1931 Ford sedan- Retirement project

***** First Member of Team Smart*****
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
wayne petty
Paladin


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 19 Aug 2007
User's Age: (56)
Posts: 3919
Location: cal.

PostPosted: Sun, Nov 08 2015, 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://beru.federalmogul.com/sites/default/files/ti_07_ignition_coils_g b_2013_lowres_0.pdf


all about ignition coils..



HEI_Primary_resistance_testing.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  106.1 KB
 Viewed:  172 Time(s)

HEI_Primary_resistance_testing.jpg



HEI_secondary_resistance_testing.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  104.24 KB
 Viewed:  170 Time(s)

HEI_secondary_resistance_testing.jpg



HEI_insulator_resisanceTesting.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  105.71 KB
 Viewed:  171 Time(s)

HEI_insulator_resisanceTesting.jpg


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail  
UGLY OLDS
Earl


Gender: Gender:Male
Joined: 04 Feb 2007
User's Age: N/A
Posts: 3215
Location: Illinois

PostPosted: Sun, Nov 08 2015, 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANKS Wayne .... This site is a keeper Exclamation Its good to learn something new every day.. Very Happy Your the Tops! Your the Tops! Your the Tops!

Bob.... Wink

_________________
1940 Oldsmobile- The "Ugly Olds"
1931 Ford sedan- Retirement project

***** First Member of Team Smart*****
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message  
View previous topic :: View next topic
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic      Reply to topic   printer-friendly view    Rodding Roundtable Forum Index -> Rodder's Roundtable All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
Rodding Roundtable topic RSS feed 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group