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EFI or mechanical injection
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Beck
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PostPosted: Mon, Dec 07 2015, 10:08 am    Post subject: EFI or mechanical injection Reply with quote

I keep talking about the same motor project. All are related but yet different.

It is time for me to make up my mind about the type of injection. Mechanical or EFI. I keep changing my mind about everything on this motor.

I have never been a tuner. Either method is going to be a pain for me. I am going to need to rely on someone else to get me set up.

I can do the wiring for EFI. I cannot do the component selection for either method. There are so many companies to use for the EFI, or modify a factory unit. Everyone has a favorite.

I spoke with Alkydigger about modifying a stack unit. They seem like a good resource for mechanical injection pieces for my homebuilt intake.

I am an undecided mess... and it's crunch time.
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enjenjo
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PostPosted: Mon, Dec 07 2015, 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My brother suggested you look here https://electromotive.com/our-products/
He says that a lot of the sprint cars guys are using this company's products. They even offer a combined ignition/EFI system with near infinite adjustment.

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kb426
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PostPosted: Mon, Dec 07 2015, 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my first thought. Holley dominator system. You will need to adapt throttle bodies to your intake or on the inlet for the blower depending on whether you are blow through or not. That is where the tps will be. Because the Dominator has many choices, you can specify everything that is important. You can set the af ratio and the wideband sensors will take care of it. What I don't know is how fast the o2 sensors react, how many pulls it would take to learn, if this is a stupid idea! I suggest you visit with Holley and see what they have to say. If the system is capable, that eliminates your tuning after it gets it's baseline. If you read Glen's thread about the Nova, you can see that this could be a beginning to make you better than you could have imagined. I'm exp. with mechanical injection but you would be tuning it at every point for density elevation. If the efi has the speed, that would eliminate that variable. My other thought about this has to do with fuel pumps. Mechanical fuel pumps are a real pain. They can't be depended on with enough faith to think you will make it a whole season without flowing or replacing. A large efi pump makes me smile in comparison. I'm sure there's things with them that I'm unaware of but the end result with the efi is where I think you would be the most satisfied.
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Beck
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PostPosted: Mon, Dec 07 2015, 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

enjenjo wrote:
My brother suggested you look here https://electromotive.com/our-products/
He says that a lot of the sprint cars guys are using this company's products. They even offer a combined ignition/EFI system with near infinite adjustment.

I spent quite a bit of time on that site. Their smallest controller, TECs, would do what I need. Initially it looks very affordable at $1250, but it is the bare controller. Adding the other necessities almost triples the pricing. That would handle all of my ignition needs also. (I added the parts I would need to build my distributorless ignition and it was over $500). I would need to call and ask about the o2 sensor. They don't like methanol.

Here I go again. Before I read all this I had decided to go with the mechanical injection.. Now I am leaning the other way again.

Good stuff. Thanks for the input!
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Rochie
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PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just purchased a unit from FItech. http://fitechefi.com I first saw this about a year ago. The unit is very well built,everything but the O2 sensor and the coolant sensor is in the unit including the ECU. 4 injector fits on a square bore manifold or a spread bore with an adaptor. Priced at $995 for the unit and $495 for the "fuel command centre". the mechanical pump fills the reservoir and the high pressure pump supplies the injectors.
I haven't installed it yet but will report when it's up and running.
Actually I see that Holley just released their unit…it's identical to Fitech's
Check it out
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Beck
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PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rochie wrote:
I just purchased a unit from FItech.


I checked that system out when it was discussed here on the RRT. I think it looks great for most builds. Unfortunately there is no intake built for my motor to put it on. I am custom building one. It is a little late to change it to take a carb base.



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PostPosted: Tue, Dec 08 2015, 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rochie wrote:
I just purchased a unit from FItech. http://fitechefi.com I first saw this about a year ago. The unit is very well built,everything but the O2 sensor and the coolant sensor is in the unit including the ECU. 4 injector fits on a square bore manifold or a spread bore with an adaptor. Priced at $995 for the unit and $495 for the "fuel command centre". the mechanical pump fills the reservoir and the high pressure pump supplies the injectors.
I haven't installed it yet but will report when it's up and running.
Actually I see that Holley just released their unit…it's identical to Fitech's
Check it out



I also just purchased the above-mentioned unit from FItech. I sold my old fuel tank and have replaced it with the same tank that accommodates an in-tank pump because I have no room for their fuel command center. This is my winter project, and I probably won't be driving the car again until April. I will post the results once I am driving it again.

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Beck
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PostPosted: Thu, Dec 10 2015, 11:53 am    Post subject: Aeromotive TECs Reply with quote

I still have not made the decision of mechanical or electronic injection.

I have been in depth studying the Electromotive TECs that enjenjo led me to.
https://electromotive.com/our-products/tecs/

It has limited outputs, but I doubt I will need any more.

I haven't found any reviews on this product. I have found reviews on their XDi ignitons, some good, some not. Many of the midget racers have tried it and gone back to MSD. Tractor pullers seem to like it.

I spoke with one of their tecs. He is either a good salesman or is confident in their products. I don't like that it uses a narrow band O2 sensor.

I found another brand, but have not been able to contact the supplier. I expect it is very pricy. Demons from Mick's Performance. It does everything including data. I am waiting on a call back. A PLUS for me is they are close. -
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PostPosted: Thu, Dec 10 2015, 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the one that Sumner and I studied a lot a couple of years ago. It has a lot of online forum help and it is one of the older systems that has evolved as technology has improved. http://megasquirt.info/

John

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PostPosted: Thu, Dec 10 2015, 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was terrified of efi and once I got the holley efi in my hands its so user friendly I can't imagine not having it . The ability to datalog will be A must for methanol tuning.

It would allow you to run cnp, coil near plug to fix your ignition questions too.
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Beck
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PostPosted: Thu, Dec 10 2015, 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the number of negative comments on the internet is directly related to the number sold. Megasquirt has a lot of product out there, therefore they also have a lot of negative comments. Some are really bashing it. Any time you add the DIY part builder issues come into play.

Electromotive doesn't have as many negative comments, but they haven't sold as many.

I think each of the mfg's (these 2 and all the others) have there issues. I am not smart enough to know which has what problems.

I do like that the upper Megasquirt products have data logging.

Mechanical injection may not be high tech but once you have it running you don't need to worry about your electronic parts. I keep thinking this motor only has to idle and run full throttle. Actually we do back out of them at times to gain steering control. They have to be able to make that transition.

OH what to do - what to do?
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PostPosted: Thu, Dec 10 2015, 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you could do both and then report back on which is best. Then the rest of us would know what to do if we are ever in the same situation. Laughing

Research is good.

John

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PostPosted: Thu, Dec 10 2015, 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you will find as many reasons to do either before you make a decision. In retrospect, here's my thoughts. With mech. injection, you will be constantly monitoring weather conditions. You will have to have a solid baseline to start with any combo of nozzles and pump size. You will need the benefit of one of those jet computers to make your life easy. If you were to dyno the engine and have accurate af ration and egt numbers to plug into the jet computer, you would have a great start. Without that info, you will be hit and miss with the tune up unless you are way better than most of us.
If you go efi, the programmed af ratio will be set and the wideband o2 sensor will be your best friend. The engines like Glen's setup would never have been possible without efi. There can be a learning curve if you don't have the proper info to start but if your plan is to be the strongest and most consistent competitor, I believe technology will be your friend.

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PostPosted: Fri, Dec 11 2015, 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had a little time to think about this. I feel the most important element is to have a reliable data logging system. Without good data you are just shooting ducks in the dark. Pulling is a lot like Bonneville. You have a limited amount of time to test and tune and you need reliable information to make adjustments. I vote for a good data logger and then use an electronic injection so that you can make easier adjustments without the need of spare parts.

My 2 cents.

John

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PostPosted: Tue, Dec 15 2015, 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I normally only lurk here, but I thought I'd weigh in-

I am building a Car with a Hilborn Stack System, and, after looking around (a lot!), I chose to go with the Holley Dominator EFI-

First off, I think the Megasquirt deal has merit, but there really isn't a brick-n-mortar place to go for help, however the price is right-the lack of direct (phone) help deterred me, but I think it's the best bang for the buck-you have to be fairly efi savvy though-

I went with the Dominator because it is controlling my Transmission, however if you don't need all of the inputs/outputs available (believe me, you will find all sorts of reasons to use them-for instance, I am controlling my Cooling Fans, paddle shifter, engine shutoff, etc. through them)-it is almost limitless, but, to save money, I would go with the Holley HP-it's cheaper, but offers fewer inputs/outputs-

Why Holley? Holley expects the dealer that you buy the product from to help with Technical/start up issues, and, if you should need help otherwise the Holley has so much popular support that help isn't far away-there are even remote tuners to help you if you need it-
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PostPosted: Fri, Dec 18 2015, 1:57 pm    Post subject: Holley it is Reply with quote

I have viewed and reviewed all of your suggestions. Thanks for the input.

I have decided on the Holley HP EFI system. As 35WINDOW stated the Dominator has more going for it, but I just don't need all the extras. It's transmission control alone is worth the extra money, but I won't need that. The extra IOs of the Dominator are very useful on a car. Because my application is a tiny pulling tractor, the HP is the answer.

Holley offers 3 Tiers of EFI training at $100 each. After the 2nd Tier you are given 20% off for everything you purchase for 1 vehicle. I have enrolled for the first 2 Tiers for Feb. I got the last seat in the classes.

Holley currently has a pretty good sale on the EFI units. I am debating if I should buy now on sale or wait until after my classes for the 20% savings. The current sale price is more than the 20% off, but they could make the current sale price the "new" regular price.
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PostPosted: Fri, Dec 18 2015, 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beck, very kool. i look forward to watching this project and feed back on the EFI training stuff.
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PostPosted: Fri, Dec 18 2015, 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beck, I received 2 emails from different places stating that Holley had a 20% off sale this month. If they have a first of the year price increase, it could be advantageous to buy now. I think those classes you signed up for could be the best money spent. Then you can tell the rest of us what we're doing wrong. Smile
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PostPosted: Sat, Dec 19 2015, 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Holley it is Reply with quote

Beck wrote:
I have viewed and reviewed all of your suggestions. Thanks for the input.

I have decided on the Holley HP EFI system. As 35WINDOW stated the Dominator has more going for it, but I just don't need all the extras. It's transmission control alone is worth the extra money, but I won't need that. The extra IOs of the Dominator are very useful on a car. Because my application is a tiny pulling tractor, the HP is the answer.

Holley offers 3 Tiers of EFI training at $100 each. After the 2nd Tier you are given 20% off for everything you purchase for 1 vehicle. I have enrolled for the first 2 Tiers for Feb. I got the last seat in the classes.

Holley currently has a pretty good sale on the EFI units. I am debating if I should buy now on sale or wait until after my classes for the 20% savings. The current sale price is more than the 20% off, but they could make the current sale price the "new" regular price.


Would you understand the training better if you had the system on your laptop and were able to familiarize yourself with it before class?
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PostPosted: Thu, Jan 07 2016, 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought the Steve Morris Holley EFI video to start the learning process. I have watched it once so far. The video is based on the Dominator, but the HP should be very similar. It uses the same software.

I am not making the purchase yet even though it is 20% off list price now. Holley offers special pricing for components for 1 vehicle after completion of the 2nd tier of training. It will be less expensive at that time. If the price is really right I may go for the Dominator instead of the HP.

There are 2 additional wiring harness required when using the Dominator to handle all the extra inputs and outputs. This compounds the added price of the processor. The thing I like about the Dominator is I could run O2 sensors or pyrometers in each cylinder. Both units data log, but with the added inputs you can data log more with the more complex Dominator.
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